You are viewing an old revision of this post, from July 29, 2008 @ 20:27:53. See below for differences between this version and the current revision.
In response to my earlier post on puzzles in narrative games, a couple of the commenters noted that contrasting the puzzles in Professor Layton with those in Grim Fandango isn’t fair, because the puzzles in the former game aren’t integrated into the game world in the the same way as puzzles in the latter one are. I wouldn’t go so far as to say, as Daniel did, that Layton isn’t a narrative game at all – we’re not talking Picross here – but it clearly isn’t as far on the narrative end of the continuum as Grim Fandango is.
But, thinking about it some more, something is still bothering me. I was responding to a forum post containing the sentence “Has shooting replaced puzzle-solving as the ‘gameplay’ aspect in narrative games?” So, rather than sticking within the context of games with lots of puzzles, what are narrative games like outside of that genre, and how does their direct gameplay (or “interaction”, to borrow Iroquois’ term) fit in with that?
To take games where shooting plays a prominent role: is Half-Life 2 a narrative game? Is Halo? Is GTA? Is Mass Effect? They all have some narrative aspects; then again, so does Professor Layton. More to the point, to what extent is the gameplay natural within the narrative context?
My first answer to that last question was “a lot more so than in Professor Layton“: in the latter, solving puzzles is quite artificial, while in the former games, shooting people is quite natural. Now, though, I’m not so sure: maybe that reaction has a lot more to do with my constant exposure to the extreme violence in games (and other media) than with anything else? I’m quite sure that if, in real life, you were to act as violently as you have to in GTA, you’d find out very quickly that behaving that way is widely considered unnatural, or at least strongly discouraged in polite society. And, for that matter, I have been in situations, albeit rare ones, where solving puzzles as arbitrary as any in Professor Layton has been essential to my overcoming real-world obstacles, much more so than violence ever has been for me. (Then again, I have a checkered past.)
In particular, let’s consider RPGs. That’s generally considered to be a narrative genre, and I think most people would say that Mass Effect is a narrative game. And it presents a context in which shooting people is a natural way to progress in the environment. To move away from shooting (but staying firmly within the genre), Golden Sun is also a narrative game; there, instead of shooting, you select actions (e.g. the powers given to you by your djinni), but your actions still fit within the narrative context.
Then what about Puzzle Quest? All of a sudden the gameplay feels completely artificial: you’re not supposed to fight monsters by playing Bejeweled, you’re supposed to fight them by choosing attacks and shooting and stuff! Don’t get me wrong, I really enjoyed the game, but, for me, it flipped over to the artifical, puzzles-not-integrated-with narrative side the same way that Professor Layton does.
But I can’t convince myself that my reaction there is justified: maybe it’s just my conditioning from other games that causes me to think that the fighting in Golden Sun is linked to the narrative in a way that the fighting in Puzzle Quest isn’t. And if we accept that the fighting (or, more generally, overcoming obstacles) in both of those is really a matter of convention, entrenched within the world of the specific game but with a tenuous natural link to either real-world convention or narrative requirements, then isn’t the same true for Professor Layton?
At this point, I’m pretty confused, and I hope some people will be kind enough to comment on this post to set me straight. Circling back to our original contrast of Professor Layton versus Grim Fandango, though, it raises an interesting question: I still agree that you can make a good case that the puzzles in Grim Fandango are better integrated with the narrative than those in Professor Layton.
But if we also accept that there’s at least something to my suspicion that, in most “narrative” genres, the mechanics of the gameplay have only a conventional tie to the narrative structure, then maybe Grim Fandango suggests that puzzles give a mechanic that can actually work uniquely well with narrative gameplay! Again, going back to Michael’s question, asking “I wonder if puzzles in narrative games are a relic of a bygone era of gaming – or are they a necessary ludic element?”, maybe the answer is that they are a necessary ludic element, or at least a ludic element that’s uniquely capable (because of its versatility) of reinforcing ludic gameplay? This may also tie into Iroquois’ comment that puzzles are at a different level in the game design hierarchy than more direct forms of gameplay (shooting, jumping, whatever).
I’m still not sold on the thesis that I’m describing here, but I’m surprised at how interesting the journey is turning out to be. Michael, I don’t want to hold you accountable for your every forum post, but I’m curious: what did you have in mind when you used the phrase “narrative game”? Maybe the next step would be to dig into that phrase a bit more.
Post Revisions:
- August 1, 2008 @ 12:32:17 [Current Revision] by David Carlton
- July 30, 2008 @ 20:39:19 by David Carlton
- July 29, 2008 @ 20:27:53 by David Carlton
Changes:
July 29, 2008 @ 20:27:53 | Current Revision | ||
---|---|---|---|
Content | |||
Unchanged: In response to my earlier post on <a href="http:// malvasiabianca.org/archives/ 2008/07/puzzles- in-narrative- games/">puzzles in narrative games</a>, a couple of the commenters noted that contrasting the puzzles in <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/960/">< cite>Professor Layton</cite></a> with those in <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/1045/"><cite>Grim Fandango</cite></a> isn't fair, because the puzzles in the former game aren't integrated into the game world in the the same way as puzzles in the latter one are. I wouldn't go so far as to say, as Daniel did, that <cite>Layton</cite> isn't a narrative game at all - we're not talking <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/820/">< cite>Picross</cite></a> here - but it clearly isn't as far on the narrative end of the continuum as <cite>Grim Fandango</cite> is. | Unchanged: In response to my earlier post on <a href="http:// malvasiabianca.org/archives/ 2008/07/puzzles- in-narrative- games/">puzzles in narrative games</a>, a couple of the commenters noted that contrasting the puzzles in <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/960/">< cite>Professor Layton</cite></a> with those in <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/1045/"><cite>Grim Fandango</cite></a> isn't fair, because the puzzles in the former game aren't integrated into the game world in the the same way as puzzles in the latter one are. I wouldn't go so far as to say, as Daniel did, that <cite>Layton</cite> isn't a narrative game at all - we're not talking <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/820/">< cite>Picross</cite></a> here - but it clearly isn't as far on the narrative end of the continuum as <cite>Grim Fandango</cite> is. | ||
Unchanged: But, thinking about it some more, something is still bothering me. I was responding to a forum post containing the sentence "Has shooting replaced puzzle-solving as the 'gameplay' aspect in narrative games?" So, rather than sticking within the context of games with lots of puzzles, what are narrative games like outside of that genre, and how does their direct gameplay (or "interaction", to borrow Iroquois' term) fit in with that? | Unchanged: But, thinking about it some more, something is still bothering me. I was responding to a forum post containing the sentence "Has shooting replaced puzzle-solving as the 'gameplay' aspect in narrative games?" So, rather than sticking within the context of games with lots of puzzles, what are narrative games like outside of that genre, and how does their direct gameplay (or "interaction", to borrow Iroquois' term) fit in with that? | ||
Unchanged: To take games where shooting plays a prominent role: is <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/994/">< cite>Half-Life 2</cite></a> a narrative game? Is <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/353/">< cite>Halo</cite></a>? Is <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/154/">< cite>GTA</cite></a>? Is <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/918/"><cite>Mass Effect</cite></a>? They all have some narrative aspects; then again, so does <cite>Professor Layton</cite>. More to the point, to what extent is the gameplay natural within the narrative context? | Unchanged: To take games where shooting plays a prominent role: is <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/994/">< cite>Half-Life 2</cite></a> a narrative game? Is <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/353/">< cite>Halo</cite></a>? Is <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/154/">< cite>GTA</cite></a>? Is <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/918/"><cite>Mass Effect</cite></a>? They all have some narrative aspects; then again, so does <cite>Professor Layton</cite>. More to the point, to what extent is the gameplay natural within the narrative context? | ||
Unchanged: My first answer to that last question was "a lot more so than in <cite>Professor Layton</cite>": in the latter, solving puzzles is quite artificial, while in the former games, shooting people is quite natural. Now, though, I'm not so sure: maybe that reaction has a lot more to do with my constant exposure to the extreme violence in games (and other media) than with anything else? I'm quite sure that if, in real life, you were to act as violently as you have to in <cite>GTA</cite>, you'd find out very quickly that behaving that way is widely considered unnatural, or at least strongly discouraged in polite society. And, for that matter, I have been in situations, albeit rare ones, where solving puzzles as arbitrary as any in <cite>Professor Layton</cite> has been essential to my overcoming real-world obstacles, much more so than violence ever has been for me. (Then again, I have a checkered past.) | Unchanged: My first answer to that last question was "a lot more so than in <cite>Professor Layton</cite>": in the latter, solving puzzles is quite artificial, while in the former games, shooting people is quite natural. Now, though, I'm not so sure: maybe that reaction has a lot more to do with my constant exposure to the extreme violence in games (and other media) than with anything else? I'm quite sure that if, in real life, you were to act as violently as you have to in <cite>GTA</cite>, you'd find out very quickly that behaving that way is widely considered unnatural, or at least strongly discouraged in polite society. And, for that matter, I have been in situations, albeit rare ones, where solving puzzles as arbitrary as any in <cite>Professor Layton</cite> has been essential to my overcoming real-world obstacles, much more so than violence ever has been for me. (Then again, I have a checkered past.) | ||
Unchanged: In particular, let's consider RPGs. That's generally considered to be a narrative genre, and I think most people would say that <cite>Mass Effect</cite> is a narrative game. And it presents a context in which shooting people is a natural way to progress in the environment. To move away from shooting (but staying firmly within the genre), <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/740/"><cite>Golden Sun</cite></a> is also a narrative game; there, instead of shooting, you select actions (e.g. the powers given to you by your djinni), but your actions still fit within the narrative context. | Unchanged: In particular, let's consider RPGs. That's generally considered to be a narrative genre, and I think most people would say that <cite>Mass Effect</cite> is a narrative game. And it presents a context in which shooting people is a natural way to progress in the environment. To move away from shooting (but staying firmly within the genre), <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/740/"><cite>Golden Sun</cite></a> is also a narrative game; there, instead of shooting, you select actions (e.g. the powers given to you by your djinni), but your actions still fit within the narrative context. | ||
Unchanged: Then what about <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/738/"><cite>Puzzle Quest</cite></a>? All of a sudden the gameplay feels completely artificial: you're not supposed to fight monsters by playing <cite>Bejeweled</cite>, you're supposed to fight them by choosing attacks and shooting and stuff! Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the game, but, for me, it flipped over to the artifical, puzzles-not-integrated-with narrative side the same way that <cite>Professor Layton</cite> does. | Unchanged: Then what about <a href="http:// www.bactrian.org/~carlton/ dbcdb/738/"><cite>Puzzle Quest</cite></a>? All of a sudden the gameplay feels completely artificial: you're not supposed to fight monsters by playing <cite>Bejeweled</cite>, you're supposed to fight them by choosing attacks and shooting and stuff! Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed the game, but, for me, it flipped over to the artifical, puzzles-not-integrated-with narrative side the same way that <cite>Professor Layton</cite> does. | ||
Unchanged: But I can't convince myself that my reaction there is justified: maybe it's just my conditioning from other games that causes me to think that the fighting in <cite>Golden Sun</cite> is linked to the narrative in a way that the fighting in <cite>Puzzle Quest</cite> isn't. And if we accept that the fighting (or, more generally, overcoming obstacles) in both of those is really a matter of convention, entrenched within the world of the specific game but with a tenuous natural link to either real-world convention or narrative requirements, then isn't the same true for <cite>Professor Layton</cite>? | Unchanged: But I can't convince myself that my reaction there is justified: maybe it's just my conditioning from other games that causes me to think that the fighting in <cite>Golden Sun</cite> is linked to the narrative in a way that the fighting in <cite>Puzzle Quest</cite> isn't. And if we accept that the fighting (or, more generally, overcoming obstacles) in both of those is really a matter of convention, entrenched within the world of the specific game but with a tenuous natural link to either real-world convention or narrative requirements, then isn't the same true for <cite>Professor Layton</cite>? | ||
Unchanged: At this point, I'm pretty confused, and I hope some people will be kind enough to comment on this post to set me straight. Circling back to our original contrast of <cite>Professor Layton</cite> versus <cite>Grim Fandango</cite>, though, it raises an interesting question: I still agree that you can make a good case that the puzzles in <cite>Grim Fandango</cite> are better integrated with the narrative than those in <cite>Professor Layton</cite>. | Unchanged: At this point, I'm pretty confused, and I hope some people will be kind enough to comment on this post to set me straight. Circling back to our original contrast of <cite>Professor Layton</cite> versus <cite>Grim Fandango</cite>, though, it raises an interesting question: I still agree that you can make a good case that the puzzles in <cite>Grim Fandango</cite> are better integrated with the narrative than those in <cite>Professor Layton</cite>. | ||
Deleted: But if we also accept that there's at least something to my suspicion that, in most "narrative" genres, the mechanics of the gameplay have only a conventional tie to the narrative structure, then maybe <cite>Grim Fandango</cite> suggests that puzzles give a mechanic that can actually work uniquely well with narrative gameplay! Again, going back to Michael's question, asking "I wonder if puzzles in narrative games are a relic of a bygone era of gaming - or are they a necessary ludic element?", maybe the answer is that they are a necessary ludic element, or at least a ludic element that's uniquely capable (because of its versatility) of reinforcing | Added: But if we also accept that there's at least something to my suspicion that, in most "narrative" genres, the mechanics of the gameplay have only a conventional tie to the narrative structure, then maybe <cite>Grim Fandango</cite> suggests that puzzles give a mechanic that can actually work uniquely well with narrative gameplay! Again, going back to Michael's question, asking "I wonder if puzzles in narrative games are a relic of a bygone era of gaming - or are they a necessary ludic element?", maybe the answer is that they are a necessary ludic element, or at least a ludic element that's uniquely capable (because of its versatility) of reinforcing narrative gameplay? This may also tie into Iroquois' comment that puzzles are at a different level in the game design hierarchy than more direct forms of gameplay (shooting, jumping, whatever). | ||
Unchanged: I'm still not sold on the thesis that I'm describing here, but I'm surprised at how interesting the journey is turning out to be. Michael, I don't want to hold you accountable for your every forum post, but I'm curious: what did you have in mind when you used the phrase "narrative game"? Maybe the next step would be to dig into that phrase a bit more. | Unchanged: I'm still not sold on the thesis that I'm describing here, but I'm surprised at how interesting the journey is turning out to be. Michael, I don't want to hold you accountable for your every forum post, but I'm curious: what did you have in mind when you used the phrase "narrative game"? Maybe the next step would be to dig into that phrase a bit more. | ||
Added: (<strong>Edit:</strong> Fixed a typo where I accidentally wrote "ludic" instead of "narrative".) |
Note: Spaces may be added to comparison text to allow better line wrapping.
I contend that all games are narratives–yes, even Tetris. In addition to the elements you find in traditional media–text, audio, music, imagery, etc–video games also have gameplay. In fact, if the game is designed really well, gameplay is the primary narrative elements and all the rest are integrated well enough to support it.
7/30/2008 @ 2:34 am
I’m with Corvus, accept that I think stories and games (as we usually think of that category) are two forms of the same thing (which I call a performative play practice). I would compare the Puzzlequest problem to what might happen in a novel if whenever characters spoke, instead of “normal” dialogue, the paper of the book was colored purple,the words of the conversation were written in a compeltely different font, and they were speaking in baby-talk even about such things as the Lousiana Purchase.
That is, for me there is only performative play, which is always also potentially narrative.
7/30/2008 @ 11:48 am
Wow. I actually wrote “accept” for “except” (and mis-spelled “Louisiana”). In my defense, my 5-year-old was literally pulling on my shirt when I wrote the comment. :D
7/30/2008 @ 12:52 pm
Interesting. And I guess I will accept that all games contain some sorts of narrative seeds within them: stepping outside of the video game realm for a moment, I can certainly construct a narrative out of a game of go, which is about as abstract as games get.
Actually, it’s even stronger than that: if I’m talking about a game of go, I can hardly stop myself from talking in narrative terms. Accepting that all games are narratives, I tend to think that there’s some sort of continuum to be found there, though I’m willing to believe that “narrative” might not be the best term for the continuum.
Assuming that: what gameplay elements are more suited to reinforcing/bringing out narrative possibilities? Given my mention of go above, I should try my Christopher Alexander experiment on a few more video games, to see if that ties in to this somehow… (Maybe Iroquois’ earlier comment can tie in with Levels of Scale somehow?)
(To other readers, I highly recommend following Roger’s link above, and to also look at these two of Corvus’s posts.)
7/30/2008 @ 8:37 pm
@Roger I’ve read your posts and enjoyed them greatly. I agree that games have always played an important cultural role in the transmission of story from generation to generation. I even wrote a pretty fluffy piece on it for the Escapist at one point.
@David I go think “narrative” is the best term to use. It’s familiar enough that people can latch onto the idea, yet formal enough that they (usually) take the time to listen to how you’re using it. And thanks for the links!
@All I don’t see Puzzle Quest as a problem, per se. I see the match three combat as a metaphor for actual conflict. It is certainly a more abstract metaphor than swiping your stylus across the screen in Phantom Hourglass or mashing a button to fire your weapons in Geometry Wars, but it’s still on the same scale as far as I’m concerned.
7/31/2008 @ 4:38 am
Corvus, apologies for the imprecision. I shouldn’t have said “problem” with respect to Puzzle Quest–I meant it in the sense of a chess problem (or the ancient Greek meaning, which is just “something thrown forth” :D). That is, I meant to say that I think PQ is a fascinating game to think with.
Thanks for reading my blog! Glad you enjoyed it.
7/31/2008 @ 5:57 am
[…] in games. There’s been a great deal of chatter in the gaming blogosphere lately about the need (or lack thereof) for narrative in games. From a certain perspective, though, the narrative for […]
12/21/2008 @ 11:17 am